But . . .
I still can't help but feel embarrassed for CCP, that development of EVE Online has come to this. A dueling system.
Sunday, February 10, 2013
Shame Spiral
But . . .
I still can't help but feel embarrassed for CCP, that development of EVE Online has come to this. A dueling system.
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So can flipping for highsec duels was fine, but now the system is formalised you are "embarrassed" by it?
ReplyDeleteWelcome to WoW in Space....
DeleteSo a complicated and easily manipulated system of can flipping is fine, but a button to do it without the complications is awful. That makes no sense.
ReplyDeleteSEEMS A LOT LIKE HEMAD
ReplyDeleteSOMAD
Delete"Roleplayers defending their e-honour,"
ReplyDeleteNot really for that you have war decs. But CCP adding it to the game will make maby few people use it.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the system coded in response to player requests for a "1v1" system that wouldn't elicit a CONCORD or external response? Crimewatch 2.0 made the jet can mechanic redundant as the taker would become suspect to the whole of EVE, making 1v1 fights somewhat problematic.
ReplyDeleteFor all the benefits that Crimewatch 2.0 introduced, I think the hard coded duelling system is a small price to pay.
Perhaps. Unless this new dueling system ends up being the door into more of this codified PvP b.s.
DeleteHmmm...
DeletePoe's Positon:
(1) "EVE is a PVP ONLY game!"
Poe's Dilemma:
(2) "OH GOD they've added a NEW way to do PVP, but I don't LIKE it!"
When I was a noob, until we moved into holes, friends and I would meet at a safe or a moon in hisec to do PvP practice, IE to duel against one another, and we used the time honored can-flip... and several friends lost ships to CONCORD because as a mechanic CAN-FLIPPING was never intended to be used that way...
Poe, back then (and for all the noobs out there today) I would have LOVED the ability to LEARN PvP (something you carry on bout here daily) in a way that did not flag me to CONCORD, and now, to every other player in EvE.
With your self-centered approach to all of this... missed that, or don't care. ALL you see if how it affects "YOUR" gameplay... this is a great learning tool for noobs and a way for anyone wanting a little PvP practice to get it without getting curbstomped by others...
As for "codified PvP BS"... codified PvP is MORE PvP... not you CAN't PvP... but you missed that too.
Wow, lol. Really? I think you're just mad that it'll be marginally harder to scam unwitting newbies and idiots into pvp. Because by far the most can-flipping duel setups i've seen has been in newbie systems. With cans named "free ammo".
ReplyDeleteThis is a truly pathetic post Poetic, you may even be canning it just to attract some controversy/hits. The ONLY reason to bitch about this system would be if they somehow stopped people being able to can-flip... but that's not happening. So, what if 'It's not emergent'? If you ask me, it's something that should've been in a long time ago, if not from day 1.
(See what I did there? 'canning it'? I crack me up.)
The dueling system is a result of the tears of the can flippers when the crimewatch change dropped.
ReplyDeleteDon't forget, that emergent can flipping mini-game does still exist.
Not really. The new Mackinaw pretty much took care of that, and Crimwatch 2.0 wiped out the last vestiges.
DeleteHonestly can't see a problem with this. I'll never use it, but people have been duelling on the undock of highsec hubs for ages. Removing can flipping made that very hard, seems like a good solution to me.
ReplyDeleteDueling systems have always been the purview of games with limited/nonexistent open PvP. That EVE now requires a dueling system ... it's a statement, perhaps, on where the game is ultimately heading. What's next? Battlegrounds?
Delete"games with limited/nonexistent open PvP"
DeleteYou just described Eve highsec!! Just because you don't live there doesn't make it any less a valid part of the game.
I wish I'd known about this way of thinking back when they introduced jump clones. I could have told them that fast travel was the purview of open world sandbox games, and that Eve was becoming Skyrim!
DeleteI get that dueling might feel artificial, and you might feel bad about it because it reminds you of that other game you used to play, but this is a feature that actually means *more* PVP in hisec and makes it easier for new players to get started in PVP. How is that possibly a bad thing?
Maybe it's just the way it's presented. It looks straight out of another game ... something that simply doesn't belong in EVE.
Delete"Hark! Sir, I challenge thee to a duel!" And then the fucking swords in the upper right corner?
As for getting into PvP. I don't know. RvB. Brave Newbies. Fweddit. Test. Goonswarm. Seems there're lots of legitimate routes into PvP.
Three of those groups need you to be a member of an external forum for 3+ months before they'll accept you.
DeleteBrave Newbies is what, one week old? And run by a fellow newbie, so you really have no idea if it's a "legitimate route" into PVP or not yet.
RvB is a legitimate route into PVP, and a damn fine one at that, but it's one that's plague by relative obscurity, fighting over nothing in some backwater highsec systems. A duel system is a welcome addition to newbie pvp, and that's something you can never have too many paths into.
The actual challenge to a duel does break immersion a wee bit, but immersion isn't that big a deal except mostly to roleplayers. Hell, this may even be an addition to immersion, for them.
DeleteAs for emergent gameplay, this is a direct response and not against, but supporting it, in the same way CCP gave us POSes after seeing folks living out of GSCs, and mining barges after seeing folk mining in battleships.
In terms of getting in to PvP, the groups you listed aren't for everyone. Not everyone fits in to, or wants to fit in to, the corp culture of those groups. One of the groups you listed doesn't even recruit EvE players in-game.
Last, all this does is enter both parties into a limited engagement. It does not prevent others from interfering, if they wish (with all the consequences). What it may do is actually make those 1v1s that turn in to 1v1 bazillion go away. How is that bad?
Dude, really, it's time to take a break, step back, and give some serious thought to whether the game is as bad as you say or if you're just caught in the negative feedback loop that I see generated by the EvE blogosphere.
What is this about "legitimate routes" into PVP? I'm sorry, I didn't realise there would be a test at the end, and I had to prove I'd done PVP "properly" to pass.
DeleteYou don't have to play the game their way, but they sure as hell don't have to play it yours either.
I'm sure you've heard the familiar story - a lot of people are averse to PVP until they happen to try it, and then they catch the bug and can't get enough.
DeleteThere will be plenty of people who try out a duel (either for lols, or over serious conflicts of ehonour) who wouldn't have pursued any other route into PVP. If one newbie in a hundred accepts a duel and finds out they love PVP, that's a really solid win in my book, pictures of swords or otherwise.
Josameto/Liekuri/Poinen/Otela are considered "backwater highsec" systems? They're only 2-3 jumps from Jita! :p
DeleteSo you're scared that because CCP are adding a mechanic that lets you have clean, easy fights, without involving your entire corp for a week or wandering into the nearest camped low sec system...all PVP will be like that soon? We are playing the same game, right? This feature already existed through manipulating the system, and now it still exists. The same people will use it as before. Given how its set up on the new crimewatch system, it won't have even taken them long to code.
ReplyDeleteI'm really not seeing what your problem is with it beyond your nebulous fear that this is their next step to removing PVP or something.
Well, the problem is, that the hypocrites can't easily use the excuse of a lack of good one on one pvp for wandering around high sec, ganking unskilled and unarmed players. Slowly but surely CCP will wake up to the fact that they can choose to be the cool rebels and slowly have their game tank, or they can wake up and acknowledge the fact that there are thousands or millions of MMO players who would enjoy paying to fly spaceships, but not around a minority of assholes that poison the enjoyment of others, and poison the majority of the news and public perception. 85% of the game space is essentially weapons free for pvp yet 80% of the active accounts play in high sec. Even the current player base is showing the obvious direction they want to play in, and that has been going on for years now. CCP can listen to the majority and succeed, or cater to the minority and fade. Lots of Games out there.
DeleteWould you seriously stop being a little baby, Poetic? Seriously. This is something that was ADDED to the game. It doesn't TAKE a single thing from you or anybody else. Reading it as a sign of "where PVP is going" or whatever, is just you donning your tinfoil hat, assuming that they're somehow going to make all PVP in the entire game consensual. The fact that all you've got left to bitch about is your own paranoid delusions says much IN FAVOR of where CCP has taken it. That you can't even recognize that reality is kind of mindbending to me, but nevertheless unsurprising, given the quality of most of your critiques of the direction in which CCP has taken the game.
ReplyDeleteHillary mentioned numerous times that he would like to see pop arenas that are limited to specific ships. Duelling isn't a nerf, it's the first step. Gankers and assholes won't like if they have to actually pick a combat ship to "duel" instead of an unarmed transport or a mining barge though.
DeleteFor a while now CCP have been working at fixing up the tattered edges of their mighty spaceships game. Sometimes that's meant stitching on a new section, sometimes it's just burning off the loose threads with a match. The effective loss of can flip duels in Crimewatch 2.0 was the latter. Now they've added back in the ability to fight someone mano-a-mano legally in hisec -arguably better than it was before- and you're bitching about it?
DeleteSo stop man. Just stop. It's pretty clear you're lacking in self-awareness here, despite the above evidence, so I'm going to spell this out for you: you're making a fool out of yourself with this nonsense tinfoilhattery. You're seeing shadows in the corners of your eyes mate, and I'm thinking it's less conspiracy-against-pvp and more Poetic-developing-cataracts.
Agree to disagree?
ReplyDeleteTo be honest I think this was done to rescue the can flip duellers. Those guys had to deal with anybody shooting them because they couldn;t find a safe spot to do it instead of outside a station.
ReplyDeleteSpace life is hard dawg.
IMO this mechanic fits well in EVE. Why? Sure, it is present in other games that shall not be named, but the big difference in EVE compared to virtually every other game is that if I wanted to I could non-consensually fight them AS WELL. Dueling in other games is an artificial limitation like every other little mini-game in MMO theme parks, one you cannot possibly get around and one that is carefully controlled. But in EVE it is giving the players every way possible to create their own PVP combat.
ReplyDeleteI agree with you. It is completely out of game. If you want duel that much, get both guys in the fleet, make a safespot and drop a can there. Afterwards wait out the 15min timer or whatever it is.
ReplyDeleteIt doesn't mean of course that during the first day I won't be running around and challenging every mission bear I find :)
Because flipping jetcans was such an innovative method of getting into duels.
ReplyDeleteOr are you complaining because it's a picture of swords in your spaceship game? How do you sdal with images of armor and shields on your armor and shield modules? Or do you call them 'forcefield enhancers' and 'nanite augmentors' as part of your daily double-think?
Erm what? Can dueling is fine and no one cares but replace it with a similar official mechanic and suddenly Eve is becoming WoW
ReplyDeleteBrilliant, this has been missing for a long time.
ReplyDeleteA dueling system is fine in my book - 2 people want to fight and can set a fight up without the usual BS required to do so...
ReplyDeleteBut I don't think its a 'fix' for can flipping. Can flipping was a game unto itself and it should be fixed so that it can return to the ice belts of eve.
I know it troubles some people, but CCP understands that carebears are a big part of the subscription base even in this PVP world. On one hand, they attracted all those carebears "as is--a PVP world." But as that world is made darker by emergent gameplay, CCP has to strike a balance somewhere. While I don't agree with you, posts like this one and those from James 315 at miningbumping.com warning of nerfs to PVP are necessary to remind CCP and everyone that there NEEDS to be a balance. So keep on fighting for your side!
ReplyDeleteYou both reprimand Jester/Ripard for acting like a small-gang PVPer while seeming to stand up for the carebears. I don't agree with most of what he says either, but maybe he is the one who gets it...there needs to be a balance or the game dies. And like most compromises, maybe CCP is doing pretty good at it. Old saying, maybe it's not a good compromise unless everyone doesn't like it?
Best comment here, by far. Thanks.
DeleteI can certainly live with the dueling system. I'll certainly be turning it off (if that is an option). I just don't feel like this new system belongs in EVE. It feels like it's something from another game, kind of forced here because a certain segment of the population demands it.
It is becomes exceptionally popular, then it begs CCP attention in further developing around it ... to the point where it could become de facto highsec PvP at some point in the future. Which would be a shame.
Once it's in the game and accepted, it becomes a feature that can be extended. Just because the current producers are adamant that highsec will always be risky (to some degree), doesn't mean that in five years, when some other person has their job, that the new person won't see things entirely differently. And since that new person has a consensual PvP tool that already accepted, that they won't build and expand upon it further.
So basically, to do a lil Poe-mindreading and summation: you're not so much worried about the mechanic itself, as to where it _may potentially lead_ in the near-future, correct?
DeleteCorrect. The boiling a frog thing. I'd planned on doing a post on the subject sooner, but got side-tracked with Xander doing so many interviews in such a short period of time, and all the Team Security stuff.
DeleteSeesh, Poe - just because it reminds you of WoW doesn't necessarily mean it's bad. What? - that game hasn't got a SINGLE good idea? Not ONE?
ReplyDeleteActually, the dueling system not too terribly different from a mutual wardec, imo. Just smaller on scale and cheaper. And who knows, maybe it'll actually encourage people to PvP more.
You're a whiny cunt. Grow the fuck up. You're no longer relevent with CCP anyways, nor the CSM, stop trying to be such a wannabe who's bitter because he's not in the cool kids club.
ReplyDeletestop blogging and go home you hack
I'll get my knickers in a knot if -- IF -- this is a part of a larger set of changes that eventually eliminates the ability to fire a weapon at anyone, anytime (i.e. highsec becomes SAFESEC). The only reason I would dislike it from the start would be nuisance duel request pop-ups in highly populated areas (good God, what will Jita undock be like?).
ReplyDelete